I have now aquired a Garmin 430 (second hand) and a Garmin Audio Panel (new). I am about to get these installed in NWF now that she has her new paint job. The DME is not working! It has been suggested that I remove it from the aircraft as not being needed. I will be doing my private IFR soon and the dilemma is should I remove the DME or pay to get it fixed and connected to new audio panel?
After the upgrade I will have
Garmin 430 GPS, Com1, Nav1 (non WAAS, no terrain card installed)
Garmin 340 Audio Panel
Collins 251 Com2
Collins 351 Nav2
Collins ADF
Collind TXP
Sunair HF (unserviceable)

Geoff
NWF

G'day Geoff:

Firstly regarding the Garmin 430. Garmin are about to discontinue support for this unit. I would recommend that you consider getting the WAAS upgrade. This will give you a new unit and warranty but is not cheap ($4k?). Without this upgrade you will be orphaned.

I'd leave your DME in the a/c for the time being. It shouldn't be expensive to fix. And connecting it the audio panel is a simple job.

What would be worth removing (for the weight) is the Sunair HF. Mine went to the tip recently, they are a heap of sh*t.

I read Ned's post with concern as I too have a Garmin 430 for IFR purposes, and I took his response to mean that the 430 would not be usable much longer . I spoke to an avionics supplier who assured me that the 430 would be supported for ages yet. Eg Jepps still provide data for much earlier less popular units. However the 430 only fulfils the criteria for a TSO 129 unit and thus must be backed up by another Navaid eg ADF. To be sole means of navigation a TSO 149 must be used, which in this case is the 430 with WASS. To upgrade to this the 430 has to be freighted to the US and on refitting a new cable and Antenna is needed , all up about $4000 aus . (The upgraded unit will fit into its old slot in the panel).
Geoff has an ADF which does for most IFR destinations, but he might want to put a VOR in the panel where the HF was.

G'day Geoff

Russell is on the money. IF you can spend a few dollars and the Aus$ is doing OK at the moment it would be worthwhile upgrading to a 430W. The $4K will give you the TSO146 operational advantages, a faster processor and some other features previously covered in this forum.

I imagine the Jepp data will be available for some time but don't expect any software updates or hardware improvements. A bit like Microsoft's recent Windows XP SP2 support being withdrawn despite being the most common OS in use. Eventually you will have to move to Windows 7 if you want support. Garmin are saying 430W is where the mainstream support will be.

You will need a new antenna which came with my upgrade. If not the new antenna is about $500. If the GNS430 was installed with RG400 co-ax that will be fine for the 430W and you shouldn't need any other work other than slide the new 430W unit into the existing rack.

The VOR and ADF will be useful for some time yet. Heard this week that there might be a requirement to replace some NDBs around the country due to the likely delay in phasing out conventional radio navigation aids.

The DME is still very useful and I would look at having it repaired if possible.

If I didn't live in the "Boonies" I would flick my HF for the weight saving. And removing the wire which most passengers seem to able to walk into and attempt decapitation despite being warned of the presence of the HF antenna would be a plus. It even gets the pilot sometimes! IF the HF doesn't work - bin it.

Do all of the above and you will have an extremely capable IFR panel.

Regards,

Paul


P.S. I would recommend doing a command instrument rating rather than the PIFR if you can. By the time you obtain FPA for ILS, VOR, ADF, RNAV/GNSS tracking and approaches you would be just as well off doing the CIR as the PIFR. The detailed explanation and reasoning would be a long post in another topic!

whilst on the discussion of avionics upgrades ,I have been looking at ways to upgrade my 67 20F WTA with a ifr gps
have been flying it around IFR with vor ndb & dme for the last few years & recently got a gps endorsment with my renewal
interesed in geting some feed back from you guys on the suggested best value for my buck
attached is details from a quote i have obtained for a 300xl to be installed (cheapest option given)
some comments on if i could do better would be appreciated
Install GNC300XL for IFR
GNC300XL New with Antenna Racks and Pilot Guides. 2 years factory warranty. 5,287.50
Serviceable KI 209A indicator for GPS and NAV 2,028.44
Remove existing equipment, re-arrange current equipment and prepare aircraft for new equipment
and Install. Testing of Equipment/ AD's, if required.
3,401.00
Digital Encoder 410.40
Flightcom Intercom 226.25
Workshop Materials 850.25
Draft and submit Engineer Order for Approval and certification.
Sheet metal may be required for install of Rack and Antenna mounting. Estimate does not include
removal of Aircraft trim, seats, travel and accommodation etc. Any defects found during the
installation, will be in addition to the cost of the installation.
720.00
Total $14216.23

I agree with all of the above although I didnt remove my HF through sheer bloody mindedness and the fact that it is a far more capable unit than the current (or previoius) crop of TSO units. Having said that, I have only used three times in 4 years, but I will use it more in the future, I will, I will.

I couldn't imagine NOT having a VOR and whilst at the end of my instrument training I came to enjoy NDB approaches, during the training I would fantasize about engaging El Quada to blow all the bloody things up! A VOR signal is far superior and a VOR approach easier to fly.

I would also back Paul's comment about CIR versus PIFR. I know there will be howls of protest and it took a long time to convince me too but the extra knowledge gained from IREX and the recency / renewal makes CIR the way to go. It is nothing to do about the hands on skill, that should be the same, it is the knowledge underpinning that skill and the ease to get the thing + approaches in the first place versus a mile long list of FPA's for the PIFR after En-Route if you want the lot.

Now for the sales pitch, I have a spare G430 data card for $50. I used it on my old 430 but the 430W uses a different card. Having two cards is good. I update the card with the latest database then take it to the aircraft and swap cards. That is far easier then having to go to the airport, bring the card home to update or take laptop and Jepp Skybound card reader to the airport to do it as I have to do now for the 430W. If anyone is interested just call or email me.

Regards

Mac, I would think long and hard before spending that kind of money on a TSO129 GPS! In a few years it won't be worth anything to you and you will need a WASS GPS like a 430W. In any case perhaps you can rationalize it if you think you won't be flying by the time WASS is required for IFR, but even then your plane will not have the resale value given it isn't WASS. Anyway, seriously, look at EBAY in the usa for a GNC300XL price. You can do a zillion times better then the quote you are getting...even considering shipping and GST. I bought my GNC300XL 5 years ago, factory remanufactured, for around US2,500! Best of luck with this! If you want to feel really bad, consider this ad I just saw in Trade A Plane. Fully installed Garmin 430W: US9,999.00!!!

Also, consider a Garmin 155XL (still made, still supported with same GPS engine as the 300xl (I'm pretty sure), just without a com radio. Ebay sales are around $1600.00 for new units! It will do everything the 300xl will do just no com radio.

There are certainly some bargains on e-bay as Peter points out. One thing to mention here. Be extremely careful and do your homework. Make sure it includes an install kit in the price. I can tell you now that you will blow all that you save and some on the installation without it. Most OEM's will not sell the install kit separately to the unit so it then has to be made up locally. There are reputable sellers both on ebay and in the trader etc who include the install kit with reconditioned units etc. Check it all out before hand and you will most likely be ok.

Mac,
What avionics do you have in the M20F now? Bit hard to make any real suggestion without knowing the starting point. Peter is right about the price. The total price for my GNS430 was not much more than your GNC300XL quote.

As Hamish says be careful with the eBay route. I picked up a reasonably cheap KR87. It wasn't the cheapest eBay buy but it had the rack, antenna, indicator and all of the connectors and cable.

Regards,
Paul

Thanks for the network & feedback
WTA has KR87 ADF K155 Nav Com International DME and a 2nd IFR approved com not sure what breed but put in by range avionics in toowoomba a couple of years ago when i upgraded back to IFR after letting my ratings lapse for a number of years
mac

Mac,

Something else to consider. I don't think your Garmin 300XL install price included the required annunciator. This will run
$650-1200 for the annunciator./ The 430W does not need one.

Also, have a look at http://approachfaststack.com

I think this has huge potential to save a great deal on an installation, and on future upgrades!

The Approach Pro Hub and Cable System is a complete solution delivering everything you need making avionic installs and upgrades fast, cost-effective and safe while eliminating the "rat's nest" behind the instrument panel. The Approach Pro Hub and Cable System is compatible with most NAV/GPS/COM, modern audio panels, intercoms, moving map displays, VOR indicators, HSI's, RMI's, ADF's, annunciators, mode control and just about any "send and receive" RS-232 formatted electronic device. The Approach Pro hub is designed for a full Garmin, Apollo, or Bendix/King stack.

The Approach Fast Stack Pro Hub is ideally suited for IFR configured instrument panels and can be retrofitted to any older or newer aircraft, certified or home-built. The Pro Wiring System is compatible with most NAV/GPS/COM, modern audio panels, intercoms, moving map displays, VOR indicators, HSI's, RMI's, ADF's, annunciators, mode control and just about any “send and receive” RS-232 formatted electronic device. The Pro Wiring System is designed for a full Garmin, Apollo, or Bendix/King stack and includes an autopilot interface. The Pro Hub is compact and lightweight permitting installation anywhere behind the instrument panel. Simply select the appropriate Approach cables for your avionics, plug them in and you are done. All Approach cables are Milspec Tefzel with proper gauge and shielding. Cable ends are terminated with the right connector connecting the Approach Pro Hub to the avionics. Approach' Fast Stack eliminates the time consuming, error-prone hand wiring methods used today and simplifies installs and upgrades by reducing the complicated technical details required for panel wiring. Labor charges, panel wiring scope creep, and aircraft downtime are drastically reduced. Approach' Fast Stack avoids the problems of hand wiring by minimizing electronic noise and other associated problems by centralizing the grounding and utilizing uniform cable shielding and proper termination providing improved, lifetime avionic performance and a new level of safety. Approach designed its system for both newer and older aircraft, certified or home-built. Additionally, the wiring clutter typically found behind any instrument panel is finally eliminated. Approach will transform the way you think about avionic installs and upgrades with a simple and reliable solution making it easier than ever before to maintain your aircraft.Call us at 218.237.STAK(7825) or visit us on the Web at http://www.approachfaststack.com/ .

I am told I need an altitude encoder for the GNS430. The owners manual makes one reference to the altitude encoder, if fitted, is used when there are not enough satellites for altitude encoding. Do I need one? If I do can the TXP one be used?

Geoff
NWF

The altitude encoding (known in GPS circles as barometric aiding) is a requirement in Australia for en-route certification and therefore for all the more advanced levels such as approaches. It is normal to use the same encoder used by the transponder. It is almost certainly validated on a regular basis by the AD/RAD/43-47 procedures.

Geoff,

As Skip mentioned the altitude encoder is required in Australia. Given the transponder you have installed uses a gillham grey code encoder for altitude information your encoder probably only has one parallel output.

It would probably be worthwhile upgrading to something like a Sandia 5-35 which has a Gillham grey output and 2 RS232 outputs. The grey code encoder is limited to 100ft resolution but the serial output has 10ft resolution. This unit will "feed" your existing transponder and has a serial port for the GNS430 or GNS430W input. Also if you update to a new transponder Mode C (or Mode S) in the future the other serial port can be used to provide the altitude to the new transponder. All of the new transponders accept RS232 data.

Regards,

Paul