I have recently obtained my GPS endorsment with my instrument renewal & am considering upgrading WTA with a TSO GPS
I am getting varied responces as to the cost of keeping the data base current
can some of the members with ifr gps equipment give me some idear of annual cost and is there any effective method of keeping the cost affordable

Hi Mac Alcorn,

I have just renewed my KLN 90B data base subscription with Honeywell. It gives me 13 downloads which I can use over an 18 month period. This cost me $410 US. This comes out to about $1.30 a day Australian. I didn't find this to be too excessive given all the information that is received in a data base.

Hope this helps

Hi
Garmin data base for Australia from Jeppesen is $252.74 AUD for 13 cycles [28days] a year.
This gives you 2 down loads for each cycle.
Regards John W.

G'day,
The only supplier for most of the IFR GPS units is Jeppesen. I don't have the exact numbers but the 430W subscription is about $375 per year which is 13 updates. The 430 subscription is cheaper and the Garmin 300XL is even less again.

Phone Jeppesen Australia and they will give you a price and start the subscription if required. Hope that helps.

Regards,

Paul

John,

Are you sure those numbers are correct from Garmin? If so they are undercutting Jepp by about $100. I think I was paying about $350 a year for the G430 but nowe for two G430 WAAS it is $460pa (for both) Perhaps they are not for the 430

I may be a little less "kind" towards Jepps. Its about $1K for G900X/G1000 which I reckon is a rip off given that they can't even get it right. It took them about 12 months (and two emails from myself) after it was decommissioned to remove the Wave Hill NDB from the database. (Actually, a friend who was using Jepps said that they still had WAV on some of their charts after it was no longer in existance) - For me this was enough to stick with Air Services docs.

G'day Andrew,

I agree with you regarding the G1000/G900X subscription. Unfortunately for the electronic databases required for an IFR GPS Jeppesen are pretty much the only supplier so there is no choice.

Generally I would say that the ASA docs are as up to date as printing times will allow and changes do make it through the system resonably quickly. If ASA were to do electronic databases it there might be a market.

Mike, without knowing what GPS John has the price would be close for a GNC300XL or 155XL. I recall that each GPS upgrade GNC300XL to GNS430 to GNS430W has come with a large price increase in the subscription. The dual GNS430 and dual GNS430W subscriptions are even more expensive.

Regards,

Paul

Hi Michael, Andrew, Paul
Paul is correct, I have a Garmin GNC300 and the subscription is $252.74 AUD, though it seems to me that the data base would be the same for all hardware, as in, all the airway infrastructure and procedures are common to all navigator units. The GNC 300 is an alpha numeric display, maybe the moving map software updates on later models comes at a much greater expense.
Regards John W.
VH MDO

thsnks for the responces re cost of gps data base downloads
Mac

Hi Mac,

The cost for my Jeppesen subscription for my Garmin 530W is:

WAAS DGW35053 to 12/5/2009 $429.00

WAAS is much more useful in the USA than here, but the benefits are:

1. Primary means navigation (very conventient if you don't have a functioning ADF or VOR)
2. Faster processor.
3. Better software, but you may never notice it. The software gives better reliability by excluding any faulty satellites from the calculation. While faulty satellites are not that common, I believe there was one case in Australia were a fault put the derived positions of users out by 600 NM.
4. Terrain awareness. Might just save you flying into a hill at night or in bad weather - so you might consider the cost of TSO 146 equipment in that light!

Although this is an old thread I am worried about it. Peter has tried to simplify a complex issue and there is some risk of misleading.

To try to clarify, there is no chance of any TSO'd GPS presenting a navigation solution with an error of 600 miles. This is what RAIM is all about and it applies to TSO C129 as well as C146. The C146 equipment is just less likely to give up and issue a RAIM error message when a single satellite fails. Conversely it is more likely to encounter an FDE "event".

The use of the sole-means provision for TSO C146 equipment might well be "legal" but members might ask themselves whether total reliance on a single piece of gear is actually wise. A gadget like the Garmin 430W provides for VOR approaches as well but when it fails it provides neither GNSS nor VOR nor ILS nor any communications.

The issue of the terrain database should be taken with a grain of salt as Peter himself has pointed out because it does not take into account "towers". I guess if I had to choose between running into a hill or into a tower I would marginally prefer the hill! Less distance to drop once you hit.

Cheers,
Skip

"The use of the sole-means provision for TSO C146 equipment might well be "legal" but members might ask themselves whether total reliance on a single piece of gear is actually wise."

And using other means of navigation is not even going to be an option once the wise men in Canberra decommission all the ground aids. I believe that starting in 2012 there is a requirement that all IFR aircraft sold in Australia must be TSO146 equipped, and that by 2015-16 all ground aids are to be decommissioned.

Hopefully the next generation of GPS receivers will have the ability to receive other GPS constellations (such as Russian or Japanese) which will lessen the risk....but not to the majority of pilots with nav equipment geared towards the USA GPS signals.

Oh joy, more expense, and even more if ADS-B is mandated.

Whilst the above scenarios are a possability, what is the risk of that ever eventuating is a G430W giving up the ghost in IMC during an approach? Now Ian Mallett may be biased towards GPS but I think given his experience in the field his arguments probably hold more water than ours. When I discussed my upgrade with him he asked why on earth I was putting in two G430W units when a complete systems failure of a G430 is virtually unheard of. I also am now ADSB 'approved' by AirServices but down the east coast Radar takes precedence but it will be useful above 10,000' in the outback.

Hi Michael,

While Garmin 430s/530s are pretty reliable, they can and do fail! The testing officer for my instrument rating said he had seen two 430s fail.

My 430 failed completely while flying to Longreach from Mt Isa and I can tell you I was very appreciative of the remaining Garmin 530 - although I felt somewhat vulnerable with only one unit working as I don't have an ADF.

Fair enough Peter. Guess I'm lucky I went ahead with dual G430's. Mind you, if the alternator fall sover and the battery doesnt last - 2 of anything electrical wont save my bacon.

With compass, WAC and timepiece we would still be ok... wouldn't we? Would be a bugger if it happened in IMC during an approach though. A map wont help much then!

Why not carry a Garmin 196, or whatever the latest is, with you. Its battery opeated and has all of the flight instruments except the AI, which I have provided by a free app (New Horizons) on my Nexus One.

What do I do if its batteries are flat, I also carry a small Garmin Geko GPS, and a battery operated hand held Icom Transceiver. I also carry a big pack of AA batteries. I really trust the alternator

Geoff
NWF

Ah Geoff, a man after my own heart ie analy retentive with aspects of OCD! I wanted Peter to bite on my ability to remember how to use a timepiece and WAC

AS well as installing the glass panel I have a new Garmin Aera 500 widescreen/touchscreen with flight instruments / MFD/Traffic/terrain & street map. Plus an old Pilot III, a 10 pack of batteries and handheld receiver. I must buy a transeiver though.

As part of the Jepp package for the G500 MFD approach plates I also get Jeppview on my netbook which runs all flight planning / ERC low and approach plates and with a mini GPS receiver the aircraft is georeferenced onto that for all en-route and approaches with current approach plates for instrument approaches

I actually bought the Aera to display traffic from my Zaon. The new glass panel will only display Garmin traffic and while I had the loom installed I couldnt afford yet another USD10K for the unit itself.

2 x G430W's and another GPS off ships power which keeps the battery charged with 4 hrs endurance plus a hand held GPS with batteries and spare batteries plus a netbook running ERC low and approach plates. If they all fail then I must have done something really bad to upset the big fella upstairs and will revert to reading a WAC chart!

To amplify Geoffs comment, the GPS296 that sits atop my panel is a great backup if everything were to go dark. Not only does it give you the ability to navigate but also gives guidance for an instrument approach. You can't bring up the approach waypoints while on the ground, but can when in flight. If all else has failed, it should give you what you need to get back on the ground.